To start off here is a quote from

How to Survive the End of the World as We Know It:

As much as I would like to believe that order and decency will prevail in a crisis, I’m afraid the reality is that the thin veneer of humanity may crack under pressure.  I hope that the worst never happens, but if it should, you need to be prepared to protect yourself, your family, and your supplies.  As I see it, the biggest threat from your fellow man will be from home invasions and looting.

The first thing I think is to make your comunity as hidden as posible, in a remote area, far off any major roads.
I think concealment is the best defense.

If that fails a person has to make the choice to fight or flight, both have there pros and cons.

If a person decides to flee.
You give up your shelter and supplies left behind, then you are at the mercy of what you can scrounge yourself.
You will be alive but for how long , as there are a lot more risk being out and about.

If a group fights
You or those you love could be killed, wounded or maimed
If you show enough force they may back down and not feel the reward is worth the risk.

Or I guess there is a third option
surrender and throw yourself at their mercy
letting them rape pillage and burn, then kill you or enslave you

Should you arm your community?
If you arm your community you might be sending vibrations out into the world that you want confrontation.
If you do not arm your community can you stay hidden forever.
do you choose the sword or the plowshare

That's a really interesting question Michael. I have thought about it a lot, being from the UK, we are not legally allowed firearms, so I have purchased a crossbow, and I have a selection of knives (purely for bush craft type work, not combat)

But, at this moment in time I feel that having a community with weapons is not needed if things are done right, both from a physical and spiritual point of view.

For me this is a very difficult question to answer in a logical and rational manner, because my mind says "yeah baby, lock n load" and my heart is saying "be at peace, it's ok"

the community should have arms that for me it's out of question .. but you also need to have a very strong policy regarding its use .. weapons should be locked down and it will require super majority approval to let anyone use them under extreme situations ..

no individual member should be allowed to bear arms on an individual basis .. i think about it something like the nuclear red button .. it will require a few keys from different members to unlock the missiles.

I have always enjoyed having a firearm of some sort or other since childhood, but never looked upon it as either a weapon for survival or protection.... more like a very adult toy in which I could take pride in its efficient or skilled use.... much like moving from bicycle to motorcycle or slingshot to bow and arrow.

But your question sits strongly with me as well. What is the best answer? We choose our own if being alone, we agree to community mandates if that is how it is.... I tend to lean toward Fernando's plan to have a larger, more protective, group support community.

And then Ivan wants the same thing but without meat or guns as they promote violence. Both are agreeable on my terms due to fact that I agree to agree with whatever the specific larger community has laid down as law.
By no means do I pretend to predict the future..... how is it said, "hindsight is 100% accurate?"

I think having some sort of weapon is needed, unfortunately.

family, friends, members are hoping the security section covers all scenarios and lets face it we could face situations we would all rather avoid yet the chances are high for confrontation etc...

a security plan should be in place for any community, way before the facility is officially open to members, maybe this is the time to share ideas everyone. Will think about it myself.

It's funny how things work out. Those of us who created this community (Little Malta) wrestled long and hard with this one. I explored both sides of this paradox. One side said, whoever comes was meant to come and that we would cope with it by sharing what we could and putting that person or persons to work for the community. If they didn't wish to stay, they could move on. This possibility, of course, could only be real if people, through their stress, would have the tendency to come and work together for the survival of as many as possible. Truly altruistic and quite pie in the sky. The other side said people can't be trusted so arm yourself to the teeth, keep everything secret and trust NO ONE.

I have come to realize that the reality will probably be quite different.  I don't know whether the changes are coming upon us all at once or (hopefully) more gradually, but I do know that more and more people are feeling it.  Our home, and community site is in a town that has a small year round population, quite rural for an eastern state and 15 miles from the nearest supermarket.  There are only 5 homes in our immediate area.  Natural resources abound.  Water is abundant.  We are quite lucky.  We have been prepping quite heavily for the last 7 months and have quite a bit put away.  Our list of tools and energy generation and building materials grows by the day.  Of course, when there's as few folks in the neighborhood, they want to know what you're up to.  Seven months ago I spoke with one neighbor and she commented, "Oh... you're one of those."  

I dropped it and went about my business.  Three weeks ago we get in a conversation with her partner and he tells us that his son was over and was being, what he called, "Somewhat apocalyptic."  We then had a long talk about our preps and how we could work together.  Came to find out that our area has a large group of people that will come together WTSHTF.  They are prepping just like the rest of us.  People are already coming together which, I believe is the purpose of the movement in the first place.  

If we go to a place of 'them and us' we just perpetuate the old paradigm of competition and comparison where no one has enough and we must fight each other to survive.  Or we will come together in caring and connection and compassion - but that doesn't mean weakness.  I believe our task is to be the template of a new way of being that respects the individual spark of life, of Spirit that we each are.  Utopian?  Perhaps, but an old friend of mine one said, "The time of greatest challenge are also the time of greatest opportunity."

I have what I call a very "American attitude" about owning firearms. In every instance where a country has made a law forbidding the citizens to own weapons, crime has escalated. Australia is the most recent example. The criminals in Australia now know that there will be no firearm facing them when they break into a house. The same is true for the government. If factions enter the govt. that want to be in greater control over the citizens, they can do so more easily of those same citizens are not armed.

Beyond security against other people, it is only in an urban and fully "tamed" environment that weapons are not needed for personal security against nature. The night I had a far too close encounter with a bear (about three feet from me and trying to get into my goats) the bear would have won if I hadn't had a rifle. No matter what the future brings, we can be pretty sure that it won't be an urban and tame environment, so weapons to protect your community from natural predators will be pretty important.

josh and lua you both make excellent points, its hard to find fault with anyone's point on this matter.
It's kinda your dammed if you do and dammed if you don't, I think I am leaning to the middle, like Have a weapon and ammo for everyone teach them to properly use them. Then have them put in areas that are secure but could be readily available in an emergency.
Maybe even have the sentries area armed but concealed
I don't want to live in a high alert police state, where everyone is packing, and If a gang of predators drop buy, have a strong enough deterrent to persuade them its not worth the risk.
Josh is right we don't want to intimidate or cause fear with other peaceful groups.

I think a lot of training will be in order so everyone knows what to do, when to do it, where to do it, and why.

exactly Michael, safe than sorry scenario yet senisble and planned, in hope a security alert level will only be in the beginning when it's a desperate situation for the un-prepared. After it areas will attract like minded people who see the community as a safe haven and not a target, eventually the larger the numbers, the safer it will be.

I'm leaning with Lua one this one, American/Canadian attitude" about owning firearms. Arm your selfs, for hunting or unwanted animal visitors or deference if need be. I live in an area full of hunters,I don't personal hunt, but I do eat the meat they share with the community. They teach there children at a young age to respect and care in the use of a fire arm. Our government tried to have a us register our guns, well it back fire, no pun intended, every one just hid there guns away. And if things go as some predict and the Earth gos truly ballistic, there wont be to many people wandering around, and if they are, they will be in a state of shock. And would probable be relieved looking down the barrel of a gun should they be lucky enough to wonder into your camp. That said, if you have never had to deal with fire arm don't get them, some one might shoot there foot off.

I think there will be a time and place for firearms. At first, for protection against the masses and the chaos situations, then possibly to hunt. But as we move spiritually deeper into the next dimension, there may be no need for them in any matter. So for now I am keeping my 2 weapons and bow and arrows, but am praying that I/we will not them in two or three years.

My advice:
Keep your firearms clean, your aim sharp, and your ammo nearby (if not locked and loaded).
But apparently, no one here leans toward a meatless scenario. I have been there, easier in the tropics, and everything went just fine for me health-wise and all, 10-15 years or more.
Would think it easier to survive, store food, etc. without a need for meat. But then again, long growing seasons and small bellies make this easier as well. Anyone (other than Ivan) investigating this possible scenario? This totally gives up any excuse for firearms other than protection or recreation (altho a loud one at that).
From my experience, there is a certain state of gentleness which comes from having no fear and choosing a path filled with harmlessness (ahimsa in sanskrit). From that place, a differ form of world view appears enabling one to more fully experience the 'quiet mind'. Less stress, more happiness.
It was only 'till my girlfriend got angry with me for having a sleeping bag filled with down, threw away my leather belt and shoes, and refused to touch silk.... that I had to leave, alas, once again.

Personally, I believe that weapons are not necessary in a spiritually sound community, even against predators. My beliefs of God and consciousness lean toward the idea that if you are connected on a higher level of morality and positive manifestation, then naturally you are not going to have to deal with these issues. On unseen levels that are not physically evident, an individual or group environment would resonate spiritual/divine realities that would keep violent/controlling instances from occuring. So, if a bear wonders into the community, the spiritual positive consciousness would lead to the bear wondering off and not attacking anyone. This type of thinking can be difficult to assimilate, but the closer one gets to a higher spiritual level it starts to play out in a physical sense, and you start to "trust" this type of reality. I am not saying im at this level, but i have experienced and practiced this type of thinking long enough to know it is true. I have never owned a gun and have actually never encountered a violent situation unless i had put myself in it. For example, when i was younger and not spiritual in any way, i would go to the local housing projects in Alabama to get drugs and found myself in a bad situation many times. So, you learn and grow. It is not just choosing to not do stupid things, you will run in to bad situation here and there, but i have got through them and never got harmed since i have been trying to grow on a higher spiritual level. God has more control than we do. A infinite dimensional force, being, entity, would have more power than one human. If you go with the idea that a higher power created us, then it stands to reason that this being would be more powerful and would/could excersice control over the creation. Well, that could lead in to a million different discussions lol.

Hear hear! I think Ben has hit this on the head. We do create our own realities and if you are constantly training to be a boxer you are going to end up in boxing fights, if you envisage and elevate yourself to expect peace, tranquility you will surely manifest it. Its all about the state of mind. We are all creators, we are all creating constantly, what we choose to think about, with emotion, occurs, whether you want it to or not. I have never come face to face with a bear, I know that would be scary. The scaryest think I have seen is an angry kangaroo (they can be quite vicious) and it would certainly take a lot of willpower and conscious mental effort to ward it away if it did wander into camp, but the point is is that it would not appear there in the first place if everyone was manifesting positive, joyous things. We create our own reality.

Very well said David and Ben, those are my thoughts exactly, although I have struggled with the whole weapon thing. Having trained as a Martial Artist, I understand the whole self defense thing, and I have that ability and I would use it if I had to protect the life of someone who was unable to do it for themselves.

If we concentrate on love, joy and bliss, then these are the things that we will attract into our lives, I have no doubt about that at all. The problem is that most people go from positive to negative in the blink of an eye, so all we would need is for the whole community to be caught in one of those negative moments, and then that is when we will attract one powerful negative event to us.

I have avoided this topic as I have such a different view. But one thing I think some are missing. If there is civil unrest and regression in people as there will be, you will need to protect yourself. I do believe God will protect us. I really don't think that a peaceful evolution will happen right away. As a helper at University of Michigan I seen more children that were lit on fire, raped, and beaten by the evil in this world, Mott Hospital takes the worst of the worst cases and there is way too much evil in this world!! No one is going to convince me that these children manifested that upon themselves!! I am going to keep my weapons and powder dry until I know there is no more violence. Then I will be the first one to burn them myself! As I, myself may manifest peace and love but the idiot down the road who is raping a defenseless child will surely regret it. We talked about laws and such in the after world and that is one thing I can do, protect children and elderly people that there is no protection for!! Some one standing over some one beating a grandma with a shot gun or bible, at this point I'll keep my shot gun thank you very much!

I don't think that there is a right or wrong answer to this question, we each have to do what we feel is right. I don't think anyone with a heart could walk past a child or an elderly person who is being beaten,raped etc, so we all have to make a judgment call when and if the situation ever arises.

I will keep my crossbow, and I will practice, just as you would with any other type of tool and if the need ever arises (God Forbid!) then I will be ready.

Thank you, Becky. My sentiments exactly.

My opinion is that there is a lot more than one think in relation of the "manifestation" process. I think that It's more complex than one can realize. It's not as simple as "just do it", it involves a whole series of factors. This is the reason why some of us will say: "This is what I desire, therefore I will "focus" and manifest it!" and others say: "Little, defenseless and innocent children could not by any means have "manifested" for to have been abused and raped...". All of the above is right! And wrong (don't you hate this word? Let's use "probably wrong!")! This explains that the "manifestation" process is not as simple as it is. It would take some time to explain (ask a guru!). It's a little bit like "you don't get hypnotized if you do not allow it to be!" But this is not even the correct example. In other words, it involves the understanding of energy (not only yours but of all living beings around you) and how it works, how you use it, are you using this energy correctly? Is it or will it harm anyone or anything? If it is/will, you will certainly get what you want, even the entire world if necessary, but soon or later the friendly "Devil" will be knocking at your door to collect your body and soul. And he is not going to negotiate. Plus, it involves karma, and also, it involves the energy of other beings. The "manifestation" process is never to be used for selfish purposes. At the very first sight may look it "worked", but there is the price soon or later. Being positive is a different matter. It's OK to attract all good things into our lives. But we will notice that all the good things we will attract are those that are the simplest, the truest and will make our souls smile: Harmony, Love, Peace, Hope...everything that is in reality free, and no, there is no price to pay for them, no Devil to deal with. But if it's material stuff, there is a reason why we got it, we will soon find it out. Maybe it's for us to share with others in need, make a difference in someone's life, because in this society we can't dettach ourselves from material things, as most things revolve around it. Anyway, why would someone (many do, though) want to have 3 million dollars parked in the bank anyway? Nobody can take it to the "other side", not even after teletransportation devices are invented. This is my take, but there are serious "gurus" out there, serious, I said, not many, but you can find a good one who can really explain this in a more sense manner. Cheers.

Edmue burke once said,All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
I have no problem giving instant karma to people who have bad intent, justice demands it.
We can manifest many things into creation, so can evil people, sometimes we are unwillingly drawn into chaos and need to act accordingly. We all know the capability of humans to inflict all kinds of horrors on other's and because we prepare to defend against that moment is in no way manifesting that outcome.
Just because we buy smoke alarms, fire extinguishers and house insurance, doe not mean we are manifesting it burning down, we just know fires happen.
I believe in order to manifest anything the INTENT has to be there, if your INTENT is evil then you will attract evil, If Your Intent is honorable then you have just prepared for the unforeseen tragedies that could befall any of us. In a perfect world we could all hold hands and sing koombi ya my lord, until then keep one hand on a weapon.

I totally understand Laroque but unless it is something that happens world wide and "in the blink of an eye". There will be those who need protecting. I think there is going to be much evil before that happens and I could no longer live with myself if I let something happen to an innocent being and did nothing but close my eyes and pray it goes away.
I know there is a very huge misconception of manifestation and you're right it is for enlightenment and not for oneself. Most don't know that. Anything "material" has a price whether it's monetary or your soul, if it's manifested for the wrong reasons!
I knew my reply would have consequences, lol!! It is a very serious matter though!!
PEACE!!

Becky, 100% with you and Michael!
My fault, I was probably a bit off topic, I was more concentrated on the "Manifestation" issue, the act of manisfesting something, turning a wish into a reality.
Oh yeah, off course, I believe in Michael's "instant karma" resolution! I would do the exact same thing! Talking about INTENT! If this jerk has the INTENTION of hurting me, or my loved ones or a defenseless creature down the street and I see it, no, I'm not going to show him the bible. Until I get to convince him/her that what he/she is doing is wrong, it will take some time (could I afford few years at that moment?) and this is IF that jerk will even come to light! I'd definetely exterminate the beast right at spot! As we say, "somebody has to teach the bully a lesson" or he/she will never learn. For a bully, bully and a half! But if someone says that God can intervene, it's not impossible, I've seen crimes "gone wrong". These are the stories we call "miracles" or "unexplained", whatever, but we can not by any means wait for a miracle to happen, especially when there is no time to afford. This is a cold and cruel world, we must know what is the right and wrong and stick with the right, but it's not a sin (and nobody will build karma for that) to righteously defend ourselves and those who are weaker than the rest by using earthly force. Actually, you will just build good karma for that. Cheers!

I really don't understand the logic behind start talking about love .. bliss .. positive thoughts and spiritual calmness when it comes to protect your own family and loved ones.

As if anyone here was claiming the need of weapons to go around and kill peaceful hungry kids.

it's a total distortion of the subject .. unrealistic and distorsive.

i wonder what some people will do to stop a gang of robers .. rapers and killers if they show up to get all you have .. (including women and child) .. and you try to stop them using yoga ..

throw 'em a mantra and see what happens.

It's easy to think that an spiritual mindset will keep psychos away while you live in a safe apartment with police going around every night and a justice system in place that even flawed is still a deterrent .. not to mention that people can still choose to steal a supermarket before bothering you.

i wonder if any of the love seekers here could handle a 15 minutes walk in a hungered violent people neighbourhood bearing only their peaceful thougths.

again .. it all boils down to the same issue: HOW REALISTIC ARE YOUR PLANS.

Interesting, still no one broaching the subject on how 'condoning' the slaughtering of innocent animals by eating meat is in any way violent or abusive to either the animal or earth or human race in general. As far as a 'higher power' goes.... maybe we should be looking more into the first visitations from other worlds than mythical concepts.
And, learning how to safely and effectively use a handgun can take a lot less time, effort and expense than learning martial arts, but martial arts much more effective than bow and arrow if within 2 meters, gun even better.

I get it that no one promotes violence on this site, on that we all agree. Suppose we will agree to disagree regarding spiritual connections on various levels regarding use thereof.
And, by the way, go girls (women) you rock! And, Michael, thanks for continuing to make me laugh!

Never underestimate the power of yoga..... but, thanks again Fernando, I truly appreciate your bluntness or reality check coming from your direction. Anyone else here noticing the subtleties between mountain women, men survivalists, yogis, peace activists, europeans and south americans? I find it fascinating. Only wish more would join in the conversations and wonder how many are either wisely, ashamedly, or spinelessly choosing to sit on sidelines.
Now.... what was the subject again?

and regarding martial arts .. please .. tell me another joke .. it reminds me that scene of Indiana Jones when this guy appears swirling his sword around in very skillful manner .. Harrison Ford whatches him for a while with a sweet smile on his face.. then pulls out his gun and shoot him.

and btw .. Richard .. i don't understimate the power of yoga .. i really hope to have a lot of yogis in my community so i never have to use a gun ..

but you cant rely your family safety upon meditation ..

i am a peaceful person and really hope a dangerous situation will never arrive .. but a white robe won't be any good if something really bad come your way.

eating flesh has its own bad karma, trying to kick the craving, untill then I try to eat only free range or wild flesh, that has lived a good life and killed in a humane manner, usually by my own action. I wish I found eating flesh abhorrent like laura and 2 of our boys do, but it dosen't bother me, we are a split family. 1 raw, 2 eat mostly vegan,some egg cheese. both girls like to eat mostly vegan , but won't pass up a steak. 1 boy prefers meat every meal. THen there is me I try to eat naturally whats in season,

How many people on this page have actually seen a human being smash another human beings face with a brick? How many people have actually seen somebody attempt to slice another human beings face to ribbons with a 2 inch box cutter?

c'mon David, not the sort of things we generally talk about in public. don't assume we are all a bunch of wussies just cause we are being kind. possibly kinder here on this site than to ourselves on a bad day. are you having a bad day or are the comments just pissin' you off? feel welcome to discuss this vent of yours with me personally if you would like.... i know many don't want to engage in more conflict on this site. we can swap stories of horror, murder, abuse or other without riling others out of shape. okay? Try and make your point in a more subtle, suitable way or the web monitors may attack and we would lose your valuable input..... just sayin'.

Woa David, being a bit graphic in there hu boy??? I can hear that blood dripping in there! Do you do those things for a living? It's bad karma, you know? Hmmm...do not get offended, just trying to understand your question. Please rephrase yourself. : |

i think i found the missing factor in the equation .. i bet most (if not all) the so called "pacifists" here .. dont' have kids yet (i'm talking about men here) ..

there's a strong sense of protectiveness that comes from the fact of being a father .. specially if your kids are little and even more if its a girl.

i consider myself  a "pacifist" but i'd never put my daughter's life at risk in the name of any ideology .. much less in the name of an utopy ..

i could build an entire army if that's what it takes to protect her .. and still enjoy a daily session of meditation.

Maybe many on this forum would label me a pacifist, and to answer your question Fernando, I do have children, both under the age of 6, and yes I would do what I had to do to protect them. I may sound like a new age space cadet, but I can assure you that I am not, I look at as many angels as I can and see what feels right to me at any given time.

I am not a violent man by nature, but I can assure you like many fathers out there, that I would KILL anyone who tried to harm my children, there would not be a thought of any mantra or new age lingo in my mind, the predator would die, simple as that.

Would I hate them afterwards? No, not at all, it would be something that I would regret having to do, but do it I would.

Hope that clears that up!

Absoultely .. i think that's an obvious reality for all of us with children .. besides .. i see that despite your pacifist speech you are already considering a cross bow wich can be a very lethal weapon .. i may say that if were not for UK legislation you'd even be considering other sort of instrument for hunting.

Thanks Fernando, actually, I am not considering a crossbow, I actually have one. You are correct in how lethal they are, mine is fairly powerful and has a big old kick to it. I am also thinking about owning a long bow too.

The trouble with crossbows is that they are not exactly silent, and the reload speed is measured in hours not seconds! LOL

Long bows have the added advantage of being quieter and fast to reload.

Crossbow are still actually used by some special forces around the world, they are generally reserved for taking our sentries.

Personally speaking, if a community (such as ones based in Europe etc) are to use weapons such as crossbows for defense, then I think a lot of time and thought should be given to perimeter defenses, the lay of the land, creating sentries at varying distances from the community, and making sure that there was a well practiced and rehearsed drills as to what everyone was expected to do.

Just my thoughts.

Actually I'm having quite a good day! Lol....and no that absolutely was NOT a vent. I don't do that on the web, I'm not that type. It was how ever a realists perspective on this...unfortunately in my work I see this kind of violence amongst human beings on a fairly regular basis....In my heart I have peace and love for all men and women of good will.....but if someone has evil intent towards myself, my loved ones or another non aggressive human being....they need to watch out. To me self defence is not something that is negotiable or even something I need to question myself on.....I do how ever find it interesting that when I state the gritty reality of the kind of violence human beings are capable of inflicting upon each other it is interpreted as either venting or trolling....It even appears to be implied that I have some type of violent streak inside me....merely for stating the kind of violence I observe today...

My advice is to watch The Road. The sad truth is that when people are scared and hungry they will do insane things to each other......whilst there is also a tremendous amount of positivity in the film, it does I think reflect a more accurate picture of the early after times....better yet, read the book.

I shall withdraw
Peace.

One thing I just thought of reading your post David. What happens when the Max. Security Prisons are emptied? I have two good friends who are awake and they work in one as guards. I have seen their scars, and heard about the evil there. And my point about horses you just hit on, you won't find me on ANY road, well maybe crossing one but I hope not......
I think we, cause I thought so too, all thought you were venting. Sorry!
Peace!

Jamie, if that's all you can count on as per your country legislation .. consider "many" crossbows .. and also a good day/night vision scope for them ..

make a perimeter wire fence 10 ft high with a surveillance tower in the center of your community ..

that will give you a fair advantge over intruders and enough time to reload your bows .. while having 360° view of the surroundings ..

you may also electrify the fence when required with a switcher.

I have actually thought about those things, defense is a very important area to think about. The trick is finding the right balance.

I wonder if it's possible to get a crossbow that automatically reloads, like what you see in some of those vampire movies...lol

bows are lethal just ask george custer and the 7th calvary and the french
http://www.history-magazine.com/longbow.html

If rouge groups choose to use body armor or vest I think an arrow will rip right through them

Sorry that post screwed up, and yes to Davids question, it wasn't a brick it was steel toe work boots, and a base ball bat. and one time I saw a guy pick up a metal BBQ and toss it at another guys head. and I saw a women stick a knife in her boy friend, I guess they were having a bad day. I also saw the grizzly bear rip the arm off a part warden. All I can say is sh!t happens. I treat humans like I treat the wild animal of the forest, walk around the bears, turn and run like hell from the badgers, stop and stair at the deer, and thank mother earth for there flesh to eat. About the eating of meet, when you live in a very cold climate , your bodies need the protein , I believe in eating to your environment, if I live in the tropics I'd eat vegetarian. I also consider myself very spiritual.

Jamie .. the balance will always be in the conscious level of the members .. knives don't kill .. people do.

Really Pi**ed off about this comment by the way. Totaly uncalled for, unnecessarily sarcastic and totaly provocative...Is this an example of your higher spiritual elevation...? Patronising, sneering sarcasm in response to a serious question? How dare I pose a question that is not inline with sanctioned 'Karmic' wisdom.....Cult anyone...?

look david I new this post could get out of control, lets not make it worse
There is no need to continue down this road
please drop it or vent on another thread

David, your line of work must suck. I would not be able to stand it, it must take a lot of courage and guts. Thanks for explaining. ;D

A while back I was having a discussion with a friend and he suggested that if 2012 happens at its most extreme, then we may be looking at two tribes...one with weapons and one without, it is unwise to think that weapons will not be used against us to assist in someone elses survival, In Australia those with weapons are the military, bikie gangs and the police and I have never even held a gun !
I sometimes pose this question to myself
" How far would you need to be pushed in order to defend what is yours or regain what has been taken from you and if you have nothin would you kill another human so you could take what they have ?" and my answer is ....
I dont know ! I guess time will tell
In the meantime I have a plan to have different locations to store food shelter and water and if I feel inclined to cut someones throat to preserve mine or my families life then maybe I will do it ...yuk

Laroque, my line of work doesn't suck but I do get to see the best and often the worst of humanity....but thanks for your kind words....peace.

Michael, I wasn't venting. Somebody was rude to me and you sanction me for it? Perhaps this isn't the place I thought it was....